Comments on: Thoughts About Cisco Open Sourcing H.264 and the WebRTC Angle https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/ The leading authority on WebRTC Sat, 02 Jul 2022 12:01:51 +0000 hourly 1 By: Lawrence Byrd https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117082 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 23:08:11 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117082 In reply to Tsahi Levent-Levi.

Well the decision at the next MTI fork in the road will be strongly influenced by this one, which is why the H.264 vs VP8 or both battle right now is so critical for vendors and worth Cisco’s $65M/10-years or whatever :). VP8-only now would make VP9 the strongest next step, while H.264 now leaves things a bit more open as vendors regroup. Google would obviously get back to pushing VP9, Mozilla seems to believe that a future Daala would be the next leap (and Cisco has some limited engagement in this), and H.265 would be there but with even worse licensing complexities, so who can tell at this point?

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By: Lawrence Byrd https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117081 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 22:21:21 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117081 A lot of the discussion here and elsewhere is about how benevolent or evil Cisco is as a result of this startling announcement. My view is that they have done the best currently possible under the complex MPEG LA licensing constraints to make H.264 as open as possible – regardless of where I fall on the best MTI decision. But why is this all about Cisco? The elephant in the room is Apple – they are the ones who are not providing APIs to their own embedded hardware accelerated H.264 code, not offering MPEG LA licensing coverage as Cisco is now doing, not allowing add-on binaries to be downloaded into iOS so Cisco’s benevolence can be added, making it pretty difficult for other browsers to exist in iOS with all their pieces, and not yet indicating any planned support for WebRTC within Safari. Apple is the vendor making open cross-platform WebRTC difficult. They need to step up.

Microsoft is obviously another vendor to question next, but let me focus on MPEG LA. This is where the H.264 encumbrance issues could be fully solved by having this now old H.264 codec become royalty free, at least for Internet use. Cullen Jennings (here: http://bit.ly/16TJ5R1) suggests that this is something Cisco would like to see, but obviously all of the patent pool members have to agree and this will be very political and complicated. Some of them, Nokia (aka Microsoft now) in particular, are still busy suing Google to try and damage the openness of VP8, so obviously more pressure is needed on these members (I’m doing my bit in my phone choices).

So let’s put pressure on Apple, Microsoft/Nokia, MPEG LA and others to get on the Open Web train and allow H.264 video to be easy and pervasive across the Internet and mobile world, rather than simply focusing on why Cisco hasn’t achieved enough all by itself (huge though it is). Alternatively, the IETF goes with VP8 as the sole video MTI codec foe WebRTC, but I don’t know that I see this happening now (it was the obvious right answer last week…)

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By: Lennie https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117080 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 20:19:58 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117080 In reply to Michael Graves.

There are some devices that do have hardware support for VP8, but this will definitely not help it.

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By: Tsahi Levent-Levi https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117079 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 20:00:22 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117079 In reply to Lennie.

I assume it is about supporting Cisco’s own legacy. Migrating it all to support VP8 is probably too much of an understaking and paying the missing amount to meet the cap of MPEG-LA was a lot cheaper.

My concern is the roadmap of H.265 and VP9 here. This is what gets compromised with this move.

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By: Tsahi Levent-Levi https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117078 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 19:59:09 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117078 In reply to irwin lazar.

True. Though one may argue that not all H.264 implementations on chipsets, hardware and phones can do anything good with real time video communications. And to that point, in some cases, the access to the codec itself is either non existent or limited by the OS itself.

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By: Tsahi Levent-Levi https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117077 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 19:57:59 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117077 In reply to Michael Graves.

Definitely a good question.

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By: Tsahi Levent-Levi https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117076 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 19:57:25 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117076 In reply to Lawrence Byrd.

I guess that non player was a tad overdone. And yes, this is the best you can get with H.264.

Question is – once you hit the horizon and need to switch to the next gen codec – which road do you take?

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By: Lawrence Byrd https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117075 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 19:50:30 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117075 You are being unfair to Cisco with your “non-player in WebRTC” ad-hominen slight. As Lennie says, Cullen Jennings and others are highly active in the standards bodies and Cisco is out in the market proactively talking about WebRTC. It is quite normal for Cisco, and large companies like them, to watch an early market and wait and not be active with products until they decide how they want to play and then arrive in force. “Business” as usual, no surprise. (So credit to Oracle Communications, fka Acme, who seem to be been the most proactive large vendor so-far with concrete product announcements). This Cisco’s H.264 announcement is itself a clear indication of lots of internal action and decision-making within Cisco – they have got a multi-million dollar budget to support this, support all the way up to @rowantrollope, and negotiated with Mozilla, all in time for the IETF meeting. Clearly Cisco believes that H.264 as the WebRTC MTI video codec is in their best interests – and no surprise, they have entire portfolios of H.264 based products that will be easier to integrate and they don’t want to be forced to support Google-originated stuff. And to be fair to Cisco again, I think what they did announce is probably the best “most open” they could manage given all the licensing and legal issues around MPEG LA and H.264. It must have been clear to them that VP8 would win the status-quo because of the H.264 licensing issues, so they have tilted the table back towards H.264 as far as they conceivably could. We shall see what this does in the IETF decision-making.

I also think that Cisco is laying down a challenge to Apple and Microsoft to do the same on their platforms – make H.264 “free” on their platforms to not only their own apps but to any developer, encode and decode, through WebRTC APIs.

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By: irwin lazar https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117074 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 15:15:21 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117074 as I noted in my blog, I don’t see Apple and Nokia devices supporting VPx in hardware anytime soon.

https://www.nemertes.com/blog/did-cisco-solve-webrtc-video-codec-problem

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By: Michael Graves https://bloggeek.me/cisco-open-sourcing-h264/#comment-117073 Fri, 01 Nov 2013 15:04:08 +0000 http://bloggeek.me/?p=3471#comment-117073 An additional question to add to your list: What does this imply for hardware support of VPx? One of the things lacking about VP8 was direct support for it’s use in silicon, which could be critical to battery life in mobile devices. There was always rumor that it was just around the corner.

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